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【DOTA2】屠夫的胜率是不是太高了
原创翻译:龙腾网 http://www.ltaaa.com 翻译:碳酸饮料 转载请注明出处
论坛地址:http://www.ltaaa.com/bbs/thread-466242-1-1.html


SheeverCorpse_Connoisseur 於 9小時前 發表
I’m all for hero diversity and stuff but Ithink a hero that ends up in 44% of all matches having a 54% win rate seems abit unbalanced.

提出该问题仅出于多英雄多样性的考虑,我觉得一个全部比赛44%出场率,胜率54%的英雄有点儿影响平衡了。

sheeverMuzz0rr 81 指標 5小時前
I will never forget the day where - asSkywrath with the old Aghs which had his ult have no cooldown - I dropped 3Mystic Flares onto a Pudge only for him to deny himself through it. Screamedthe house down.

在天怒A杖大招无CD的年代,我曾经连着往一个屠夫身上扔了三个神秘之耀(大招),却发现这逼在我大招里从容地自杀了 —— 这让我至今无法释怀。绝望的我快把房子吼塌了。

I love IceIceIceApocsky_ [分數隱藏] 7 分鐘前
At least he didn't blade mail

至少他没出刃甲。

sheeverKraivo [分數隱藏]5 分鐘前
As a Pudge player, I giggled.

作为一个屠夫玩家,我不厚道地笑了。

twin-headed birbFalonefal 159 指標 9小時前
Due to the nature of hook, it's almostimpossible to properly balance this hero.
Same thing happened to Bat, due to thenature of lasso, it took ten thousand nerfs until the hero became somewhatbalanced.
It's funnier with Pudge, cause he firstreceived patches and patches of buffs until he became a goddamn monster.
I think maybe they should start with thesimple things, like just remove the extra magic resist from flesh heap and seehow that affects his winrate.

由于肉钩这个技能的本质问题,这个英雄不太可能得到适当的平衡。
对蝙蝠骑士来说也是如此,因为燃烧枷锁这个技能,这货不知道挨了多少刀才让大家觉得稍微平衡了些。
而对于屠夫而言就更有趣了,这家伙是通过每次更新的一点点小加强慢慢变成怪物的。
我觉得他们可以从最简单的事情入手,比如移除腐肉堆积带来的额外魔抗,看看这对屠夫的胜率会有何影响。

sampeckinpah5 166 指標 8小時前
the difference is even when batrider wasmassively strong, no one picked him in pubs but pros were all over him. and nomatter how bad pudge is, people will pick the hero in pubs but it would takeinsane buffs to make pudge a staple pro pick. when the situation is like thisit's hard to really uate the power level of this hero. he doesn't reallyfeel 'unfair' to play against most of the time, he takes some skillto play well and he is not really a core hero so he is a good pick in almostall games.

区别在于,就算蝙蝠骑士强得一塌糊涂的时候,一般玩家也很少使用这个英雄,但职业比赛里就全在围绕这英雄打;相反,不管屠夫被削多惨,一般玩家都会选,但要其进入职业玩家的英雄池,还需要史诗级加强才行。当你无法清楚地判断这个英雄的强度的时候,大多数情况下,有个屠夫在你对面并不会让你觉得不平衡,这玩意儿要玩儿好是要水平的,而且因为并不是核心英雄,所以在所有比赛中选他都还可以。

CorunRS 34 指標 8小時前
It's similar with what they did with Io ,one of the worst winrates in pubs but still nerfed due to how good it was inpro drafts, due to the nature of its abilities

小精灵的情况也差不多,这货的胜率在路人局垫底,但职业阵容中的强势表现让其一而再再而三挨刀。这都跟它的技能的本质有关。

paTrolling for SheeverSlocknog 39 指標 5小時前
screw hook, free permaslow at level 1 isthe real cancer with this hero. hook and dismember are 'i scale intoeverything no matter how shit my early game was but if it was good i will be agod even from pos 4/5'

肉钩太恶心,加之一级就拥有免费的减速技能是这英雄的病根。肉钩结合肢解的技能组合能让你不管在前期玩儿得多屎,在中后期依然能发出声音。前期玩儿得好点儿,即便4打5时都是神一样的存在。

Gerroh 29 指標 3小時前
free permaslow
Rot is definitely not free. He only winsthis exchange if his team outnumbers you, otherwise he loses hard.

免费的减速。
2技能腐烂可不是免费的。只有当屠夫的队友数量超过你的时候,它换血得来的减速才是值得的,否则就是血亏。

нσи тяαѕнFatSloth 12 指標 3小時前
For real. The amount of people that justrun away instead of attacking and moving is unreal. You will win the level 1damage trade unless they outnumber cause of his awful armor.

确实。总有菜鸟被黏住之后只顾埋头跑,而不是停下对刚。除非对面人数占优,否则屠夫一级对拼是打不过你的,它护甲太低了。

GodBlessSheeverdraconid [分數隱藏] 6 分鐘前
funny that one time a lv1 pudge tried tokill my disco pony where we just both enable w and auto atk

有一次超搞笑,有一个一级的屠夫想杀我的单车武士,当时我们都开了二技能和自动攻击。

afrojumper [分數隱藏]11 分鐘前
i saw him without a joke in almost every ofmy 10 last games. always in the same role. In a Tri lane, and he always get'sfirst blood against the offlaner.
He's insanley good in every stage of thegame...

我在最近十局比赛中几乎常常都能看到屠夫,每次都是打一一样的位置。劣势路刚三的时候他每次都能拿到一血。
在比赛所有阶段它都能发挥巨大作用。

vraey 2 指標 6小時前
I think another aspect that is important isjust how many games most people have played with/against pudge. There is moreof an understanding of what the hero brings to the game than most, it enablespeople to play around it more naturally than others.

我觉得还有一点很重要,大多数玩家们与屠夫一起游戏或对抗屠夫的比赛场数太多了。我觉得这更多的是处于玩家对这个英雄在游戏中作用的理解,让玩家们在挑选英雄时更自然的选择屠夫,而不是别的英雄。

dududududuPrimusSucks13 6 指標 2小時前
This is actually a very true and overlookedstatement, ive been playing this game for 4 years and pudge has always beingthere no matter what meta is, he is just a 'safe pick' in a way thatis not safe for your lineup.

这是个确实存在但被过分渲染了的话题。我玩儿这个游戏4年多了,不管在哪个版本,屠夫从来都不缺席。当玩家觉得对线不稳的时候,屠夫往往是其求稳的一手选择。

GunslingerYuppi 1 指標 1小時前*
Sounds very true. For as long as I'veplayed I've seen pudge being popular. Does he deserve a nerf because he'splayed a lot? Maybe limit his availability rather than mess with the hero.Didn't he just get a nerf to hook? You can look at any stats and draw conclusionsbut they're not necessarily the right ones, your comment being a good example.I've played games where opponent pudge was more of free food than op and I'mmore happy when opponent has pudge than when my team has pudge.

听起来确实如此。我玩儿Dota以来屠夫就一直特别火。但因为玩儿的人多就该被削弱吗?可以限制他的作用,但别搞砸这个英雄。为什么刚削弱还是有人愿意玩?你可以去看种种言论并且得出自己的结论,但别人说什么不一定都是对的,你的评论就是个很好的例子。我玩儿过很多对面有屠夫的比赛,多数都是来送的菜,没给我带来太多麻烦。比起自己队友有屠夫,我更希望屠夫在我对面。

ttongss 6 指標 3小時前
Saying Bat was/is impossible to balancebecause of lasso is a bit naive. Lasso is a powerful ability but isn't whatmakes Bat competitively viable or broken. The reason Bat has been so relevantfor so long is his amazing laning phase, and in prior versions of the game,jungle efficiency. Historically, Bat could reliably eek out the smallest amountof exp and gold from the offlane and turn that into a very fast blink andconvert that to map control
That's is what ice frog has continuallytargeted with Bat's nerfs. Lasso has barely been touched. Put lasso on anyrandom hero and I don't think they become insanely broken heroes. (Napalm onthe other hand...)
This is also why pudge has, historically,not been relevant despite him having some insane skills. No one has figured outhow to lane him or making him consistency impactful if he misses hooks. Thatbeing said, pudge has been buffed to oblivion so i think its not long untilsomeone figures this out

说蝙蝠因为大招而没办法平衡的有点儿天真了。燃烧枷锁是很强力,但不是蝙蝠无法替代的原因。蝙蝠能活跃这么长时间主要是因为他在其对线能力,和在之前版本中极高的清野效率。蝙蝠在劣势路可以很少依赖线上的经验和金钱,并且迅速出到跳刀,从而掌控整个地图。
这是冰蛙在削弱蝙蝠时一直想要针对的点。而燃烧枷锁一直没怎么动过。我觉得把燃烧枷锁放在任何其他英雄上都不会比蝙蝠更加变态。(一技能粘性燃油是另一方面 ... )
这也是为什么屠夫,从始至终,尽管技能都很变态,缺始终上不了台面的原因。没人知道把它放在那条线更合适,也没办法让他在钩不中之后依然保持威慑力。也就是说,屠夫一直被人加强只是为了防止被遗忘,我觉得玩家很快就会发现这点。

twin-headed birbFalonefal 2 指標 2小時前
I think the frog first tried to nerf Bataround his lasso (vision range and lasso range) but then figured he couldn't doanything more without destroying the ability, so he nerfed bat's laning andgeneral farm-ability.
Some heroes have abilities that are justhard to balance (around), and you can't really change that certain abilitywithout people going 'well, I'll just pick something else then', so they haveto be nerfed in ways that aren't directly related to that ability, which makesthese heroes feel kinda clunky as there's so much focus on properly using thathero's 'hidden power' that you actually need to be abusing as a team, which iskind of hard in pubs.
Pudge is doing well so far, but I thinksoon he'll be nerfed in ways that aren't hook-related heavily, to the pointthat you will be required to land an above-average amount of hooks in the earlygame or become utterly useless.

我觉得冰蛙一开始是想直接削弱大招的(视野范围和大招施法距离),但后来发现,除非删了这个技能,这些并没什么卵用。所以冰蛙转而砍了蝙蝠的对线和打钱能力。
有些英雄技能的机制决定了它很难被平衡。你很难在不使玩家们产生“好吧,我换个别的英雄玩儿”的感觉的情况下做出改变。因此不得不以一种间接的方式削弱,使这些英雄看起来有些笨拙,而职业队伍对于英雄隐藏的能力的滥用严重,但这些能力对于路人局中是很难有效利用的。
屠夫的表现一直都很不错,但我觉得它会以一种不直接削弱肉钩技能的方式被削弱,使你在游戏前期要出多出平均数更多次数钩子才能达到原来的效果,或变得完全没用。

BigEZ_ 5 指標 8小時前
IMO nerfing magic resist from Flesh Heapand the movement speed slow of for will help. But also the nature of Hook justdrags you out of position and ur fooked

个人觉得,削弱堆积腐肉的魔抗和腐烂的减速是个好主意。但对肉钩真是没什么办法。把你钩出来,然后干死。

they will all succumb to the broodrowfeh 2 指標 1小時前
What about lowering the damage on Hook? 400true damage is quite a lot

削弱肉钩的伤害咋样?400纯粹伤害太高了。

stolemyusername 2 指標 2小時前
If just level 1 rot was 15% slow it wouldput the hero down like 5%. Very fair nerf

如果一级腐烂的减速是15%,那么相应地,屠夫也减速5%。很公平的削弱。

MumrikDK 2 指標 6小時前
It's funnier with Pudge, cause he firstreceived patches and patches of buffs until he became a goddamn monster.
Wasn't he already a winning hero in pubswhen they started with the shitload of incremental buffs?
I believe Bat mostly has been a loser inpubs.

而对于屠夫而言就更有趣了,这家伙是通过每次更新的一点点小加强慢慢变成怪物的。
不就是这些没脑子的一堆加强让屠夫成为高胜率英雄的么?
蝙蝠在路人局里几乎没人选。

DHeighway 2 指標 4小時前
and they still make hook more gimmickystill with the addition of rune hooks, only making it harder for themselves

运营方为了给屠夫增添更多噱头还让肉钩可以钩神符了,屠夫不是更难削弱么,搬起石头砸自己的脚。

they will all succumb to the broodrowfeh 2 指標 2小時前*
Due to the nature of hook
I'm assuming you mean that's in the samecategory as something like Nether Swap or like you said, Batrider, whereforcing your enemy to be in a position he doesn't want to be in is incrediblystrong. Any skill that displaces enemy positioning will always be a strongspell.
So how about lowering the damage the Hookdoes? 400 Pure Damage at level 7 is, quite a lot, especially since the core conceptof the Hook is already very strong in in of itself.
like just remove the extra magic resistfrom flesh heap
I wouldn't say this is an example of a'simple thing', since Flesh Heap combos quite well with his own Rot.So it's like a double hit where magic damage nukers become stronger againsthim, and he himself got stronger against himself (lul).

这是肉钩的本质决定的。
我猜你真正想说的是,相同模式的技能,如复仇之魂的移形换位和蝙蝠骑士的大招,这种能强迫敌人移动到他不想到的位置的技能太过变态了。任何能造成敌方英雄走位失误的技能都是很强大。
那降低肉钩的伤害如何呢?7级的时候400纯粹伤害,有点儿太高了,特别是屠夫钩子把敌方英雄拉到身边这个机制已经强的不像话了。
那移除腐肉堆积的额外魔抗呢?
我不会过分简单地去考虑这件事情,我觉得额外魔抗和而技能腐烂搭配挺好的。移除了魔抗就相当于魔法攻击类英雄在攻击开着腐烂的屠夫的时候相当于双倍伤害了,屠夫开腐烂就相当于帮对方痛扁自己(笑死)。

crashlnds_player 5 指標 7小時前
I think move flesh heap magic resistance totalent might be nice. Nerf slow to scale with level 15/20/25/30% so he cantslow and hit at the same time early game.
Remove armor and spell lifesteal talents.Add 8 strength and flesh heap magic resistance as talent instead. So he have ahard time dealing with physical damage (he has pretty low armor) and having thesame magic resistance if he pick the talent.

我觉得把腐肉堆积的额外魔抗移进天赋里会好一点。把腐烂的减速削弱到15/20/25/30%,这样在游戏前期它就不能边减速边A人了。
移除护甲和技能吸血天赋。将+8力量和腐肉堆积磨抗加入天赋。这样它对物理攻击非常头疼的同时(护甲太低),同时,如果选择了魔抗天赋,仍可以拥有与之前相同的魔抗。

penialito 5 指標 3小時前
Wow relax, dont kill the hero either. Pudgelacks movility, hp/mana regen, armor, has mana issues, hook is unreliable andulti is melé and very easy to disrupt

放轻松点,别毁了这英雄。屠夫缺移速、回魔回血速度、护甲、魔法量不足,肉钩的控制不稳定,大招需要持续施法,很容易被打断。

crashlnds_player [分數隱藏] 38 分鐘前
30% Slow early is way too much. I can seethat scaling it is necessary (maybe 20/30/30/30 instead) just no hit + slow atthe same time early.
If you say his weakness like that it iseasy to see I killed the hero. But if you look at old talent tree. He have his+5 armor talent at lv15 so you can kill him early game now he got +5 armor anda 13% spell lifesteal. Mana + Hp regen + Mobility problem is solve by Tranq +Clarity already because he's a roamer anyway so he should never get hit whiletraverse through the map. So what left is armor, unreliable hook, (his ult issomewhat balanced because it pierce spell immune and still heal him even thoughhe deal no damage).
So his weakness left aside from skillshotis armor. So ok we give him very early talent to solve his weakness and boomthat how you mkae hero that can be very good even though he does not have muchitems (he used to have to buy some armor to deal with physical damage nowtalent already cover it).

30%的减速太多了。我觉得调整减速的成长性很必要(改成20/30/30/30%也许),只要游戏前期不能边减速边A人就行。
如果你只着眼于屠夫的英雄短板,你很容易认为我的建议会毁了这英雄。但如果你看一下老版的天赋树。屠夫在15级的时候才能获得5点额外护甲的天赋,所以在游戏初期你能很容易地杀掉他,也正因如此他才有了5点护甲和13%技能吸血的天赋。回魔回血+移速问题可以通过购买鞋垫和净化药水解决,因为他始终都是游走位,在地图里游荡的时候基本不会受到什么攻击。剩下的就是护甲,和不稳定的肉钩的问题了(大招因为无视魔法免疫和技能吸血我觉得很平衡了,尽管不造成任何伤害)。
这么一来,如果不算技能释放难度,屠夫的弱点就只有低护甲。好吧,那我们在前期就给他护甲天赋帮他弥补这个缺点,然后,duang,你怎么能在英雄设计得,在没有太多装备积累的情况下就这么牛逼呢?(之前还需要买点护甲装备以对抗物理伤害,现在天赋就解决问题了。)

Finlay_Arthur 1 指標6小時前
Interestingly not picked or valued much inthe pro scene though.

有意思的是,在职业比赛中几乎不怎么看中或选这个英雄。

4HeadXet 1 指標 3小時前
Due to the nature of hook
Pudge never had this high of a winrate, oreven such a high pickrate before. He's historically always hovered around 50%winrate and I think 30-35% pickrate. Recent changes and patches to the gamehave made him better overall. For example, status resistance from strength.
You could easily bring his winrate down anotch by changing something basic like reducing the slow from rot. I won't besurprised if we see a scaling slow on rot per level in the next patch.

这是肉钩的本质决定的。
屠夫的胜率从没怎么高过,即便之前出场率很高的情况下。历史上,屠夫的胜率一直摇摆在50%左右,出场率大概在30-35%。最近对游戏的改动和加强让他的表现总体向好。比如,力量属性提供状态抗性。
你可以通过修改一些基础数据轻松地把他的胜率拉下来,比如减少腐烂的技能减速。如果下个版本屠夫被砍了每级减速速率,我一点都不吃惊。

imadirtycup 1 指標 2小時前
Pudge is good in low level pubs, butgarbage in the pro scene. Batrider was always picked/banned in pro games, sothat's why it was nerfed. Pudge is fine the way he is now.

在鱼塘局里屠夫表现是不错,但在职业赛场上这英雄就是垃圾。蝙蝠骑士在职业比赛中非Ban必选,这就是他一再挨刀的原因。我觉得屠夫现在的状况挺好的。

twin-headed birbFalonefal 1 指標 2小時前
I mean, personally I haven't had problemswith Pudge, so, his slightly above 50% winrate doesn't bother me at all.

我个人觉得,我从没感觉屠夫是个很大的困扰,50%多一点的胜率对我来说不算什么。

Pink Sheever BorderEtzlo 1 指標 2小時前
pudge has only been seeing buffs, so yeah

屠夫从来都只被加强,亲儿子,是时候来一刀了。

vornash2 1 指標 1小時前
Shorten the hook distance, do something.

缩短肉钩的技能距离,总得砍点儿什么。

SheeverInnocent_Au [分數隱藏] 24 分鐘前*
Agreed, Hook makes Pudge the safe pick nomatter what. It is the perfect tool in uncoordinated pubs.
Need to win a teamfight? Hook some and turnit into a 4v5.
Need to take high ground? Hook.
Need to defend high ground? Hook.
Roshan fight? You guessed it...
The hero requires ZERO communication andcoordination. He even has a 4 sec disable ffs, to give enough time to yourdumbass teammates to come to you to kill the hooked guy.

同意,肉钩让屠夫不管怎么样都是很稳的选择。在没什么配合的鱼塘局里,肉钩是完美的工具。
想赢得团战吗?钩个人过来轮了,然后4打5.
想上高地吗?钩
想守高地吗?钩
肉山团?自己想吧...
这英雄完全不需要沟通和配合。他还有个长达4秒的控制技能,完全够你的傻逼队友把被钩的家伙怼死。

sheever!Jazzinarium 43 指標 8小時前
In the Divine bracket he has a 51.7%winrate which is pretty strong, but not outright broken. Some minor nerfs infuture patches should be enough (maybe stat gain? +3.5 str per level soundsridiculous).
Btw, speaking of Divine winrates, do youknow who has the highest? Huskar, at 58.6%.
FUCKING 58.6%.

在超凡入圣局(DOTA2 新天梯排位赛称号)里屠夫胜率是51.7%,挺强的,但还没到影响平衡的地步。以后几个版本里小幅削弱即可(可能砍一刀属性成长?每级+3.5力量有点儿太扯淡了)
说到超凡入圣局里的高胜率英雄,你们知道谁胜率最高吗?哈斯卡(神灵武士),58.6%。
去他妈的58.6%。

Yapzor-GodRondariel 60 指標 7小時前
That's because last picking huskar againstsome lineups can almost guarantee a win if you know what you're doing.
Doesn't mean he's OP tbh although he is inan ok place for the first time in a while imo.

那是因为最后一手拿神灵的话,只要你脑子清醒,对线打爆对面这一局就基本稳了。
但这不代表他是无敌的,说实话,我第一次觉得神灵现在的状态刚刚好。

mrTang5544 7 指標 7小時前
when do i last pick huskar?

我上次拿神灵是啥时候的事儿了?

Yapzor-GodRondariel 21 指標 7小時前
When the enemy has mostly magic damage orlow disable lineups.
Alternatively if someone in your teampicked Oracle or dazzle. Basically don't pick him into pure damage or burstphysical damage lineups or lineups with long disables.

当对手大部分输出来自魔法伤害或弱控制阵容时可以选神灵。
或者,自己的队伍里有人选了神谕者或者暗牧。总之,别在对面选择纯粹伤害或爆发性物理伤害阵容或者长时间控制技能的阵容拿他就对了。

Eulslover 12 指標 7小時前
enemy having weak lanes/greedy cores (likeAM) also helps

对手线上能力差/还有一号位是个刷子(比如敌法)的情况下也可以拿。

Highcon1337 1 指標 2小時前
If i have lastpick and the enemy got nodissables, only slows and no axe im going huskar even to midlane, since hishardest counters are disarm and stuns. When the enemy team lacks that you canbasically end the game at minute 25 before the first heavens helbeard getsonline.

如果我最后一手拿,对面没硬控,或者只有减速,没有斧王,我就会拿神灵中单,毕竟他最怕的还是缴械和眩晕。如果对面缺乏上述提到的要素,你基本可以在25分钟之前,对面还没出到天堂之戟的时候结束战斗。

DamnThatsLaser 3 指標7小時前
In case you know what you're doing

前提是你的战术思路明确。

I was blinking before everyoneelseifitsreal 7 指標 7小時前
Enemy has no pure damage (OD, Timber, etc.)and physical damage that can either be controlled (sven around gods strength)or doesn't come on line for a while (antimage, physical damage ember). Also nobloodseeker or axe. Also no illusion heroes.
Everyone always thinks 'I'll justitemize against him with silver edge,' but forgets that his ult purges thebreak in which case the enemy carry is a full item behind an already snowballhero.
The best Huskar games are ones where youhave a lineup that can end the game in 25 minutes.

对面没有纯粹伤害技能(黑鸟,修补匠等等),物理输出在可控范围之内(别惹开大的斯温),或者基本不怎么稳定占线的(敌法师或者物理装的灰烬之灵)。也不要有血魔和斧王。也别有强力的幻象系英雄。
很多人都会想:“我可以出个白银之锋针对他”,但忘记了神灵大招是可以净化白银之锋的破隐一击的减益效果的,也往往忽略了神灵是一个非常容易滚雪球到六格神装的英雄。
有神灵的局,最好的节奏就是对线期打爆对面,在25分钟之前结束战斗。

 
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