Questioner: I should like to understand the nature of dependence. I have found myself depending on so many things - on women, on different kinds of amusement, on good wine, on my wife and children, on my friends, on what people say. Fortunately I no longer depend on religious entertainment, but I depend on the books I read to stimulate me and on good conversation. I see that the young are also dependent, perhaps not so much as I am, but they have their own particular forms of dependence.
发问者：我想了解依赖的本质。我发觉自己对很多事物都有依赖，我依赖女人、各种娱乐、美酒、妻子和孩子、朋友以及人们的言论。幸运的是，我不再依赖宗教的把戏了，但我还得靠读书来激励自己，还依赖良好的交谈。我看到年轻人同样也有依赖性，也许没有我这样严重吧，但他们有自己特定的依赖形式。
I have been to the East and have seen how there they depend on the guru and the family. Tradition there has greater importance and is more deeply rooted than it is here in Europe, and, of course, very much more so than in America. But we all seem to depend on something to sustain us, not only physically but, much more, inwardly. So I am wondering whether it is at all possible to be really free of dependence, and should one be free of it?
我曾到过东方，看到那里的人是多么依赖上师和家庭。比起欧洲这里，传统在那儿显得更加重要，更加根深蒂固，当然，与美国相比，就更甚了。但是似乎我们所有人都依赖某些东西才能生存下去，不仅身体层面是这样，内在更是如此。因此我想知道，究竟有没有可能真正地摆脱所有依赖，而且人是不是应该从中解脱？
Krishnamurti: I take it you are concerned with the psychological inward attachments. The more one is attached the greater the dependence. The attachment is not only to persons but to ideas and to things. One is attached to a particular environment, to a particular country and so on. And from this springs dependence and therefore resistance.
克：我想你关心的是心理上内在的执着。一个人越是执着，依赖性就越强。执着的对象不仅可以是人，也可以是观念和实物。一个人可能执着于某种特定的环境，一个特定的国家等等。从执着中就产生了依赖，进而产生了抗拒。
Questioner: Why resistance?
发问者：为什么会有抗拒？
Krishnamurti: The object of my attachment is my territorial or my sexual domain. This I protect, resisting any form of encroachment on it from others. I also limit the freedom of the person to whom I am attached and limit my own freedom. So attachment is resistance. I am attached to something or somebody. That attachment is possessiveness; possessiveness is resistance, so attachment is resistance.
克：我执着的对象就是我的领地或我的性范畴。我要保护它们，抵抗任何形式的外来入侵。我也限制了我所执着的那个人的自由，同时也为自己的自由设了限。所以，执着就是抗拒。我执着于某人或某物。那种执着就是占有；占有就是抗拒，因此，执着就是抗拒。
Questioner: Yes, I see that.
发问者：是的，我明白这一点。
Krishnamurti: Any form of encroachment on my possessions leads to violence, legally or psychologically. So attachment is violence, resistance, imprisonment - the imprisonment of oneself and of the object of attachment. Attachment means this is mine and not yours; keep off! So this relationship is resistance against others. The whole world is divided into mine and yours: my opinion, my judgement, my advice, my God, my country - an infinity of such nonsense. Seeing all this taking place, not in abstraction but actually in our daily life, we can ask why there is this attachment to people, things and ideas.
克：如果我的财产被人以任何形式侵占，就会导致暴力，通过法律，或者在心理上与其对抗。因此，执着即暴力、抗拒和牢笼——执着的主体和对象都被囚禁了。执着意味着“这是我的，不是你的；离远点！”由此可见，这种关系乃是对别人的抗拒。整个世界被分成了你的和我的：我的观点，我的判断，我的建议，我的上帝，我的国家——这样的无稽之谈从未休止。看到所有这些事情实实在在地发生在我们的日常生活中，而不是在抽象的思维中，我们会问为什么会有对人、事物和观念的依赖。
Why does one depend? All being is relationship and all relationship is in this dependence with its violence, resistance and domination. We have made the whole world into this. Where one possesses one must dominate. We meet beauty, love springs up, and immediately it turns to attachment and all this misery begins and the love has gone out of the window. Then we ask, 'What has happened to our great love?' This is actually what is happening in our daily life. And, seeing all this, we can now ask: why is man invariably attached, not only to that which is lovely, but also to every form of illusion and to so many idiotic fancies?
为什么人要依赖？一切存在都是关系，所有的关系都处于这种依赖中，与之相伴的是暴力、抗拒和控制。是我们把整个世界变得如此。哪里有占据，哪里就必然会有控制。我们遇见了一个美人，爱情喷涌而出，很快，爱情变成了执着，所有这些苦恼就都开始了，然后爱就悄悄溜出了窗外。之后，我们会问，“我们伟大的爱情到底怎么了?”这就是我们日常生活中实际发生着的事情。看到这一切，我们不禁会问：为什么人类一味地执着，不仅执着于美丽的事物，还执着于各种形式的幻觉以及数不清的愚蠢念头？
Freedom is not a state of non-dependence; it is a positive state in which there isn't any dependence. But it is not a result, it has no cause. This must be understood very clearly before we can go into the question of why man depends or falls into the trap of attachment with all its miseries. Being attached we try to cultivate a state of independence - which is another form of resistance.
自由并不是非依赖状态；这是一种积极的状态，其中没有任何的依赖。但它不是结果，也没有起因。在我们深入探讨人类为何依赖或陷入执着的陷阱以及所有与之相伴的痛苦之前，必须清楚地理解上面这点。一旦有执着，我们就会想办法培养一种独立的状态——而这恰是另一种形式的抗拒。
Questioner: So what is freedom? You say it is not the negation of dependence or the ending of dependence; you say it is not freedom from something, but just freedom. So what is it? Is it an abstraction or an actuality?
发问者：那什么才是自由？你说自由并不是对依赖的否定，或者依赖的终结；你说自由就只是自由而已，而不是相对于某物的解脱。那它是什么？它只是一个抽象的概念，还是真实的存在？
Krishnamurti: It is not an abstraction. It is the state of mind in which there is no form of resistance whatsoever. It is not like a river accommodating itself to boulders here and there, going round or over them. In this freedom there are no boulders at all, only the movement of the water.
克：它并不是一个抽象的概念。它是一种心境，其中没有任何形式的抗拒。它并不是根据乱石处处调整自己的一条河，或绕过砂砾，或自其上流过。在这自由中，根本没有砂砾，只有水的流动。
Questioner: But the boulder of attachment is there, in this river of life. You can't just speak about another river in which there are no boulders.
发问者：可是，执着的砂砾还在那儿，就在生命之河中呀。你不能只谈没有砂砾的另一条河。
Krishnamurti: We are not avoiding the boulder or saying it doesn't exist. We must first understand freedom. It is not the same river as the one in which there are the boulders.
克：我们并不是避开砂砾，或说它不存在。我们首先要懂得自由。它已经与原先那条满是砂砾的河流不是同一条河了。
Questioner: I have still got my river with its boulders, and that's what I came to ask about, not about some other unknown river without boulders. That's no good to me.
发问者：可我的河里还是砂砾密布，我因此才来问你，但不是问你什么没有砂砾的未知河流。那对我一点用处也没有。
Krishnamurti: Quite right. But you must understand what freedom is in order to understand your boulders. But don't let us flog this simile to death. We must consider both freedom and attachment.
克：没错。但要了解你的砂砾，你必须先懂得自由是什么。但是我们不要在这个比喻上死缠烂打下去了。我们应该同时来考虑自由和执着。
Questioner: What has my attachment to do with freedom or freedom with my attachment?
发问者：我的执着和自由有什么关系，或者自由和我的执着有什么关系？
Krishnamurti: In your attachment there is pain. You want to be rid of this pain, so you cultivate detachment which is another form of resistance. In the opposite there is no freedom. These two opposites are identical and mutually strengthen each other. What you are concerned with is how to have the pleasures of attachment without its miseries. You cannot. That is why it is important to understand that freedom does not lie in detachment. In the process of understanding attachment there is freedom, not in running away from attachment. So our question now is, why are human beings attached, dependent?
克：在你的执着中存在着痛苦。你想摆脱这痛苦，所以你培养超脱，这是抗拒的另一种形式。执着的反面之中没有自由。这两种对立之物是相同的，相辅相成，互相增强。你关心的是如何只享受执着的快感，而不想要其中的痛苦。你做不到。因此，超脱之中没有自由，明了这一点非常重要。自由就在了解执着的过程中，而不在对执着的逃避中。所以，现在我们的问题变成了：为什么人类会执着和依赖？
Being nothing, being a desert in oneself, one hopes through another to find water. Being empty, poor, wretched, insufficient, devoid of interest or importance, one hopes through another to be enriched. Through the love of another one hopes to forget oneself. Through the beauty of another one hopes to acquire beauty. Through the family, through the nation, through the lover, through some fantastic belief, one hopes to cover this desert with flowers. And God is the ultimate lover. So one puts hooks into all these things. In this there is pain and uncertainty, and the desert seems more arid than ever before. Of course it is neither more nor less arid; it is what it was, only one has avoided looking at it while escaping through some form of attachment with its pain, and then escaping from that pain into detachment. But one remains arid and empty as before.
一个一无所是、内心荒芜的人，期望通过别人找到水源。一个人如果感到空虚、贫乏、可怜、无能、百无聊赖或无足轻重，就希望通过别人来充实自己。他希望借助别人的爱来忘却自己，借助他人的美让自己获得美丽。他想借助家庭、国家、情人以及一些光怪陆离的信仰，为那一无所有的荒漠栽满鲜花。而上帝就是那个终极情人。于是他将精力投入于所有这些事物中，痛苦和不确定性随之而来，内心的荒漠似乎比以往更贫瘠了。当然，它既没有更贫瘠，也没有更肥沃；它还是原来的样子，这个人只是藉由某种形式的执着以及与之相伴的痛苦，逃避面对现实，然后，又为了逃避那痛苦而选择超脱。可这个人照样贫乏空虚。
So instead of trying to escape, either through attachment or through detachment, can we not become aware of this fact, of this deep inward poverty and inadequacy, this dull, hollow isolation? That is the only thing that matters, not attachment or detachment. Can you look at it without any sense of condemnation or evaluation? When you do,are you looking at it as an observer who looks at the observed, or without the observer?
因此，若不试图逃避，无论通过执着还是超脱来逃避，我们不就能觉察这个事实，觉察这深刻的内在贫乏和欠缺，这沉闷空洞的孤立了吗？这才是唯一重要的事情，而不是执着或超脱。你能不带着谴责和评估地看着它吗？当你看着它时，你是作为一个观察者，看着被观察的对象，还是根本就没有观察者？
Questioner: What do you mean, the observer?
发问者：你说的“观察者”是什么意思？
Krishnamurti: Are you looking at it from a centre with all its conclusions of like and dislike, opinion, judgement, the desire to be free of this emptiness and so on - are you looking at this aridness with the eyes of conclusion - or are you looking with eyes that are completely free? When you look at it with completely free eyes there is no observer. If there is no observer, is there the thing observed as loneliness, emptiness, wretchedness?
克：你是从一个中心看出去，带着所有喜欢或不喜欢的结论、观点、判断以及摆脱空虚的欲望去观察的吗？你在用带有结论的双眼，还是用一双完全自由的眼睛去看那片贫瘠之地呢？当你用完全自由的眼光看时，观察者就消失了。如果没有观察者，被看作孤独、空虚、悲哀的东西还在吗？
Questioner: Do you mean to say that that tree doesn't exist if I look at it without conclusions, without a centre which is the observer?
发问者：你的意思是说，如果我不带结论，不以观察者为中心地看时，那棵树就不存在了？
Krishnamurti: Of course the tree exists.
克：那棵树当然存在。
Questioner: Why does loneliness disappear but not the tree when I look without the observer?
发问者：当我进行没有观察者的观察时，为什么消失的是孤独感，而不是那棵树？
Krishnamurti: Because the tree is not created by the centre, by the mind of the 'me'. But the mind of the 'me', in all its self-centred activity has created this emptiness, this isolation. And when that mind, without the centre, looks, the self-centred activity ends. So the loneliness is not. Then the mind functions in freedom. Looking at the whole structure of attachment and detachment, and the movement of pain and pleasure, we see how the mind of the 'me' builds its own desert and its own escapes. When the mind of the 'me' is still, then there is no desert and there is no escape.
克：因为树并不是由那个中心、那个“我”的心智创造的。但那个“我”的心智，通过它自我中心的种种活动制造出了这种空虚和孤立的感觉。当心智不再带着那个中心去看时，自我中心的活动就结束了，因而孤独感也不存在了。然后，心智的运作就自由了。通过观察依附与超脱的整个结构、痛苦和快乐的运动，我们就会发现“我”的心智如何建造了自己的荒漠，又自行策划着逃脱。当“我”内心寂静时，既没有荒漠，也不用逃脱。
The Urgency of Change， ‘Dependence’
《转变的紧迫性》之“依赖”
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